Critical Conversations with Naomi O’Brien (@readlikearockstar)
Welcome to the new year! With the past behind us (and as always, guiding us), we are excited to look towards the future.
Yes, 2020 brought along change and challenge, growth and loss. But it also ushered in a new generation of leaders into the work of social justice and civil rights.
And they are joining the conversation right on time, considering the alarming resistance we educators, activists, and allies are facing. So what better way to kick off the new year than by sharing the experiences of an experienced educator, activist, and ally?
Naomi O’Brien (@readlikearockstar) is a licensed elementary school educator with over 10 years of classroom teaching. When she's not developing curricular materials or supporting phonemic awareness, she’s leading the way for teachers to approach their practice with an anti-racist, anti-biased lens.
We are so excited to share our conversation with Naomi. And it’s an enriching one. So let’s get right into it!
Credit: @readlikearockstar (Instagram)
Siriana (Allusio Academy, founder): Tell me a bit about yourself. If I was asking you, “Who are you, and what's your why, what would that be?”
Naomi: I am a teacher. I’ve been an educator in a primary setting for eleven years. I’m a wife and a mom. And my why is just wanting what's best for kids and thinking about the future. [I’m] hoping to put kids out into the world that, as cliche as it sounds, are world-changers and really are going to grow up and make a difference because of the small part that I had in their lives.
Siriana: And as an elementary school teacher, what keeps drawing you back to kindergarten and first grade?
Naomi: I feel like with those grade levels, you can make the most difference and you can have a lasting impact. My first two years, I was in kindergarten and then I went up to second grade, so I had a few of my own kids back. But our kindergarten team had eight teachers on it. So did first grade.
So there was a mix of kids from several different teachers, and it took me a lot of time to kind of undo some of the things that some of the teachers that weren't so great did. And then the other kids that had a really good kinder and first grade teacher, they were just so much more ahead and aware and didn't have as many academic or behavioral issues. It took me so much time to undo and reset some of the other kids before I set them on a better path. And I [thought], “Wow, this took so much of the school year. If I could have had them earlier, I know that they wouldn't have turned out this way.” Or, “I saw them when they were in kindergarten, and it didn't have to be this way if they had a different teacher.”
So that experience made me feel like I have to get to them earlier before some of that damage has set in and it [becomes] a pattern of behavior that takes the teacher the entire year to change.
Siriana: That's fascinating for me to hear. I love all ages across early education, but I’m most drawn to preschool. And I can feel so disheartened when I don't know what's going to happen to my children the next eighteen years of their lives. It's hard to think that I don’t have the ability to make as much of a difference as a teacher who meets them when they're older.
Naomi: You really do. I remember we had this teacher named Ms. Hendricks. And I [said], “If you got Ms. Hendricks kids, you knew she already gave them the best start ever.” But it was easier in kindergarten to correct something, even if they didn't get it in preschool. But [by] second grade, it took me more than half the school year to help a second grader learn how to read or control themselves or calm themselves down. And it was like, “Who was your teacher?” It really does make an impact, even if the kids don't remember it. It does help them a lot.
Siriana: I like the idea that they won't remember my name and that's fine. That's not what's important. What they'll remember is how I made them feel and how I introduced them to education. Thank you for that. So you worked in Pre-K for a bit. What was unique or challenging about that age group?
Naomi: The kids were fantastic. The rules around them were hard because it was actually a kindergarten/Pre-K split. So, the state [had] rules around how much screen time they could have, how much they needed to be outside, what their centers had to be. It was really difficult to mix with the kindergarten kids that didn't have the same rules around them. [For instance, the preschoolers] had to eat in the classroom. They had to wash their hands constantly. They could only have thirty minutes of screen time. They had to get outside for an hour a day. So that was a struggle.
One cool thing I noticed was that we had a lot of play time because they were preschoolers. And I was wondering how it was going to turn out at the end of the year. And . . . actually, a lot of them were at kindergarten grade level or even above kindergarten grade level, even though they were in preschool. And even though they spent the majority of the day in playing centers . . .they were still able to pick up so much academic stuff. That was eye-opening and also influenced me to bring some more play back into kindergarten because they can do both and still be successful.
Siriana: That's giving me chills. That's amazing because we wish all teachers and we wish all policymakers would recognize that. So that's a really cool experience that you had. Wow.
Naomi: It was only four of them in there, but all four of them were just incredible. And two of them hadn’t even been in school before. So they didn't have this super head start. [Yet] they were reading and writing, but then still regulating emotions. So it was cool to see.
Siriana: That really touches on the idea that if you give them higher expectations, children (or anybody) will come up to meet those expectations. That's amazing. So we're switching gears a bit to talk more about activism, anti-racist teaching, and social justice.
Siriana: As a teacher, I'm the one that has the power of curriculum, the power of material, and how children are treated in a classroom. And we always hear teachers, parents, or policymakers think that children are too young for these critical conversations. I've seen your work with your children, and I admire it so much. So what does that look like in the classroom? What do these critical conversations look like with your students?
Naomi: Well, they've looked like basically giving them the language to describe things that they are already experiencing or doing or taking part in anyways. I think a lot of people’s first thought is to say, “Oh my gosh, they’re too young to talk about that!” Well, they're experiencing racism or they're saying racist things or they're having racist thoughts. So just because you name, it doesn't mean that you brought it into existence. They were already seeing these things and doing these things. They just didn't have the vocabulary for it. So for me, it feels like just having a regular conversation like you would about anything else. It's something that you need to know to be able to navigate the world successfully when you grow up.
“I want you to be the best person that you can be.”
That’s how I always start these conversations.”Some of this stuff may make you sad. It might feel uncomfortable and make you mad, but we need these conversations so we can grow up and be the best people that we can be.” And they love the conversations and they always have so many connections. I think [that’s] because there's never the opportunity to just randomly bring up, “Hey mom, I was racist today.” You're not going to go home and say, “Hey, I was mean to somebody because of their skin color.” But when you talk about it, [there are a great] amount of stories that every single one of them has from either experiencing [racism] or [demonstrating] racism. When they're that young, they're so honest about what they've done or what they've been through. And when you're able to talk through that and put them on a different path or [help them] question something or teach them something [to] learn and do better, it's just really powerful.
And I see it year after year. Parents are always appreciative of it. And the kids are just better people for it. You see them grow in so many ways, and you see the way that their actions change or the way that their words changed, because they're able to have these open conversations.
And it's not tough for the kids. It's uncomfortable for the adult, I think, because they're thinking about everything that they have attached to those conversations. But for the kids, it's just like learning any new thing, especially at those young ages. It's another new topic to learn about.
Siriana: Well said. Have you heard about the idea of the three F's of childhood? It touches on that a little bit. It's the idea that children are preoccupied with three F's: fantasy, friendship, and fairness. So as humans, we automatically are drawn to ideas that touch on those notions. And so fairness has to do with all of these issues of inequality and injustice.
Naomi: Yes! That's something I've always said. They are so justice-oriented.
Siriana: So moving then from children to adults, we’ve been seeing this recent upsurge in anti-biased and anti-racist education. And I'm seeing workshops being sold or guides and curriculums that are being published and put out there. Personally, I'm wondering, “Okay, it's great to have these conversations. But how many are well-intentioned versus how many are just kind of doing it because it's the next hot topic for mainstream education?” What are your personal thoughts on teachers that are new to this conversation and how they're joining it?
Naomi: I’m always worried about the same thing, as well. You also have to think about how long they are engaging in this work for. Some teachers [say], “Okay, I taught that one lesson. We had that conversation. Phew! Now I'm done.” They don't get that it should be happening all year long or pop up throughout the school year every time you see an opportunity to speak into it. You never know who's doing the work because it's something that you would have to see every day, every week throughout the entire course of the year to really see who's doing it, you know, authentically and genuinely.
Siriana: On that note, I find your page very positive and empowering. And as a young teacher, when I first started education, I was always inspired. But once I started looking at education through an anti-racist lens, I was just enraged. Everything made me upset at the world. Once I found my footing in my classroom, I felt empowered. So I'm wondering, what was your journey like? Where are you now in that kind of emotional experience?
Naomi: I mean, basically the same thing. And as far as where I am emotionally, it's so up and down. You know, one day I could feel very inspired and feel like things are changing and things are going in the right direction. And then the next thing you know, you see a bunch of teachers with problematic lessons, and it's trending. And then you're like, “Oh my gosh, nothing's ever gonna change.”
But I do think it's definitely better than when I first started. When I first got on teacher Instagram, a lot of the really harmful and outright racist things that were going on were popular. And when we (a few other teachers and myself) would try to contact these teachers or [write] in the comments, we would point out that this is actually really racist or harmful or hurtful to this culture or race. And we would get blocked or [see] the majority of the teachers yelling at us in the comments.
Over the years, it's changed to where more teachers are open to that feedback. And it's not just the Black teachers in the comments pointing out that something's racist or offensive. It's other teachers, whether they're part of that culture or not saying, “Hey, maybe we should take another look at this.” So the times are changing—but not always as quick as I would like.
Credit: @readlikearockstar (Instagram)
Siriana: One hundred percent. I appreciate the work of you calling out and calling in people to that conversation. With your own son, I'm wondering if he ever comes up to you and he asks, “Mom, can we talk about this today?” What does it look like when you two have these critical conversations?
Naomi: He's definitely always like, “Can we talk about this or can we learn more about that? And I feel like he is very unique in that way. We always just have conversations or read certain books and just randomly, he'll say, “Can you teach me more about this topic?”
Like we just recently got Sulwe, which touches on colorism in the Black community. And he's been kind of obsessed with what happened to her in the story. “Well, why did they call her those names?” So just randomly, he'll keep bringing it up. And we'll continue to have conversations about how some people with darker skin are treated versus some people with lighter skin, every time it comes up.
Siriana: Has Noah ever said anything that kind of took you off guard? Maybe you didn't expect him to ask that question or know about that topic?
Naomi: I think through some of the talks and things he sees presented, he has [said], “Oh, we should just change our skin to light. And then you won't have to deal with racist people.” [It] makes me sad because he's like, “Oh, I have this solution. Here's how we can fix the problem. And we all just be white.” It's like, no, it doesn't work like that.
There always has to be a balance of affirmation of who we are as Black people, as well as pointing out some of the things that we see that aren't okay [or] how we can stand up for ourselves and others, without making him or others think that it's the other people that need to change.
We've talked about how some women wear hijabs and they might be mistreated. He’s like, “Oh, well they should just take them off.” You know, solution! And it's like, no, they should be able to dress however they want. And it's the other people that need to not be rude. His little, four-year-old solutions are sometimes like, “No, don't think that way.” So we just have to continue those conversations.
Siriana: It has to be fascinating to have a four-year-old at home with you all the time. In terms of things that you wish more early educators kept in mind, is there a specific perspective or a resource that you wish all of us knew about?
Naomi: Perspective-wise, I wish that more educators kept in mind how much their bias really does play a part in how their classroom is run. I think a lot of us would like to think that it doesn't [play a part], or you're as fair as you can possibly be. But it's something that we need to constantly examine. And even if you caught one part of it and you're working on that, there might be something else that you don't notice. So it's something that we have to constantly reflect on with why our students aren't doing very well.
[We have to] take a look at ourselves first, before we're so quick to blame it all on the student or all on the student's parents or their upbringing. [We have to] put ourselves in that equation a little bit more.
Siriana: I actually caught myself doing that my first few years on the playground. I would notice myself always hovering more when a girl was climbing. And as a feminist who actively thinks about gender, I thought, “How can I let myself act this way in the classroom?” So it is challenging, but you have to be aware of it before fixing it. How has your work changed in a virtual setting? Are you teaching virtual right now or back in person?
Naomi: I'm not even teaching right now. I'm just homeschooling my son, and then I'm also assisting my friend's daughters who are in virtual school, as well.
Siriana: Where do you see yourself in five years from now? (Hopefully, given a COVID-free world.)
Naomi: I know! Hopefully doing the same thing. I would love to be reaching and impacting more teachers and more students in some way.
Siriana: Would you ever think about [school] administration?
Naomi: Never, no, never. I am a classroom teacher for life. I've had a few schools offer it or suggest that, and it's just not for me. One year, when I was the gifted teacher, [my school administration was] trying to train me or groom me to get into administration, and it's just not my cup of tea. And I just felt like I was missing out on making the direct impact with kids. They’re like, “Well, you're making it through the [other] teachers. And then it trickles down to the kids.” But it just didn't bring me joy. I need to be in the classroom.
Siriana: That's how I feel! When people are always saying, “Oh, but you have so much potential.” I'm like, “That's insulting.” I am reaching my potential with the students. We'll see where the world takes us. Do you have any final advice for anybody interested in elementary teaching?
Naomi: I would say to make sure they know how to teach kids phonics properly. I just feel like a lot of teachers in early education don’t [know how], and then the children suffer academically as a result. Find a good classroom management style that gives the kids grace and still honors them as little people and isn’t punitive and doesn’t break them down.